I found my Homey app listed on LG ThinQ PLAY without any prior notice

[dohun0310]

Before I begin, please note that I’m Korean and the ThinQ PLAY and ThinQ ON interfaces shown to me are in Korean. I apologize that the screenshots are therefore also in Korean. This post was translated into English with the assistance of AI.

After connecting my ThinQ ON to Homey, I started setting it up to resemble the Homey environment I use as my main smart home platform.

I installed the apps that appeared to be compatible with ThinQ ON and then checked the Added Services page in the LG ThinQ app. Two apps were shown there: Google Cloud Text-to-Speech, which I developed, and HomeyScript.

Curious about how this worked, I searched for my app directly in ThinQ PLAY, LG’s app store for ThinQ ON. I found that the app images, description, changelog, developer name, and contributor information I had submitted to the Homey App Store were also displayed there.

I was also able to install the app on ThinQ ON directly through the LG ThinQ app and use it without performing the installation through the Homey mobile app. This suggests that ThinQ PLAY is not simply displaying information from the Homey App Store, but is also making the app available for installation on ThinQ ON.

However, I do not recall receiving any separate notice from Athom that a Homey app submitted to the Homey App Store would also be published or made available through ThinQ PLAY, nor do I recall explicitly consenting to such distribution.

I reviewed the publicly available Homey Apps SDK documentation and Athom’s published terms. In the official public documents I checked, I could not find an explanation stating that publishing an app in the Homey App Store would automatically make it available through ThinQ PLAY or on ThinQ ON.

I have therefore contacted Athom and asked for clarification on the following points:

• What contractual or licensing basis allows Homey apps to be published or made available through ThinQ PLAY?
• Which version and specific provisions of the terms are considered to authorize this?
• What app and developer information has been shared with LG Electronics?
• How many ThinQ ON users have installed my app?
• Who is responsible for compatibility and security review on ThinQ ON?
• Is it possible to keep the app available in the Homey App Store while opting out of ThinQ PLAY?

I also contacted LG Electronics and requested clarification on:

• The contractual and copyright basis for making the app available through ThinQ PLAY, including the relevant terms, versions, and provisions
• When and how my consent was obtained, and whether a record of that consent exists
• Whether the actual app package is distributed to ThinQ ON or only its metadata is synchronized
• The date it was first made available, the versions provided, installation numbers, and who is responsible for compatibility and security review
• Whether developer information or app configuration data is provided to or processed by LG Electronics
• How to remove the app from ThinQ PLAY while keeping it available in the Homey App Store

Until the legal basis and technical distribution model are clarified, I have asked for new installations of my app through ThinQ PLAY to be temporarily suspended. This is not a request to remove the app from the Homey App Store.

I am posting this because other Homey app developers may not be aware that their apps could be listed or installable through ThinQ PLAY. If anyone from Athom can clarify how this integration works, what terms apply, and whether developers have a platform-specific opt-out, I would appreciate a detailed explanation.

I will share any substantive response I receive from Athom or LG Electronics.

[robertklep]

The capture, packaging and selling of user/customer data has become a big part of LG’s business model, and I have no doubt that their ThinQ ON is, or can be, used for that as well.

As a Homey developer, I don’t want my apps to be used for such practises. It’s therefore worrying that your app has seemingly been put on the ThinQ PLAY store without prior notice and/or the option to opt-out (or rather, to opt-in).

[smarthomesven]

@robertklep

As a Homey developer, I don’t want my apps to be used for such practises.

If you install the ThinQ mobile app and go to Add device → Other brands, you’ll see all the Homey apps listed as well

I don’t have any issues with it myself though. My apps are open source anyway, so everyone’s free to use them as they like.

[dohun0310]

Thanks you. Honestly it’s a relief to hear I’m not the only one bothered by it.

@robertklep

It’s therefore worrying that your app has seemingly been put on the ThinQ PLAY store without prior notice and/or the option to opt-out (or rather, to opt-in).

And yeah, whatever LG ends up doing with the data almost feels beside the point. The real problem is we were never told, and never asked. This should’ve been opt-in from the start, not something we just happen to find out about later. I’ll post back here if Athom or LG actually gets back to me.

[dohun0310]

That’s fair, and I get where you’re coming from. Honestly I’m glad when people find my work useful. That’s a big part of why I share it in the first place.

But for me the open-source thing isn’t really the point. Most licenses still have terms, and “free to use” isn’t the same as “free to redistribute through a commercial platform I was never told about.” It’s less about who uses it and more about being asked first. I’d probably have said yes anyway. What bothers me is that nobody asked.

[robertklep]

@smarthomesven

My apps are open source anyway, so everyone’s free to use them as they like.

From what I’m seeing, your apps are published with the GPLv3 license, which does not mean that everyone is free to use them as they like. And I wonder if they can even be run legally on Homey anyway.

But aside from that, there are other things to consider. For example, what is expected of me as a developer in terms of support? I don’t have a ThinQ ON device, so if people running one of my apps on it are having issues, how am I supposed to help out? I already have similar issues with Homey SHS, which I don’t run because I’m not going to spend my money on something I won’t use myself.

[smarthomesven]

@robertklep

From what I’m seeing, your apps are published with the GPLv3 license, which does not mean that everyone is free to use them as they like

But commercial use and distribution is allowed, which is what LG is doing here. The source needs to be disclosed, but since it’s a 1:1 copy of my app, the source is already published

@robertklep

But aside from that, there are other things to consider. For example, what is expected of me as a developer in terms of support?

If anyone uses a ThinQ ON, I will just ask if it can also create diagnostics reports (not sure if the ON has that feature). If not, I just say that I can’t help the user. If it does, then I’ll just use that to find issues (since probably the apps run inside the homey-apps-runner image that I also used for my Homey Cloud Community Appstore project) so it will work the same way as on Homey.

@robertklep

I already have similar issues with Homey SHS, which I don’t run because I’m not going to spend my money on something I won’t use myself.

Yes, I also won’t buy a Homey Pro 2023/2026 just because users have issues with it or want live streaming for the cameras, etc. I use a Pro 2019 and it works fine on there, and luckily most of the apps are also compatible on the newer models. You’re not required to give support if you can’t. I can’t afford €449, so I can’t add live streaming to f.e. the Osaio app. And that’s fine, because the users can’t expect every developer to have all Homey models.

[dohun0310]

@smarthomesven

If anyone uses a ThinQ ON, I will just ask if it can also create diagnostics reports (not sure if the ON has that feature).

It’s actually the other way around, and it’s not just LG recommending their app, they’re forcing it. ThinQ ON used to work with Homey, and through Homey you could send diagnostics reports without any issue. But LG blocked the ThinQ ON integration on Homey, forcing everyone into their own ThinQ app instead, and the ThinQ app doesn’t let you send diagnostics reports at all. So the feature works where they’ve now cut off, and is missing where they force you to go.

[robertklep]

@smarthomesven

The source needs to be disclosed, but since it’s a 1:1 copy of my app, the source is already published

The GPL also imposes specific requirements on the runtime that is used, and that’s where things become tricky. Homey apps don’t run standalone, they run inside a wrapper (that, in turn, runs in a Docker container). Depending on the specifics, the source code of those parts, and all parts that the app interfaces with, like SDK’s etc, may also need to be GPL-licensed.

And this applies to the ThinQ ON “compatibility layer” that runs Homey apps, too.

[smarthomesven]

@dohun0310

and the ThinQ app doesn’t let you send diagnostics reports at all

That’s unfortunate. Are app settings pages shown? Like, can you install an app with a settings page (f.e. Duux Gen2) and then view the settings page with the debug information?

I think I might be able to use my homey-apps-telemetry service for this, so that it also sends errors (and possibly logs) automatically during the use of the app. Then I don’t need the native diagnostics reports to provide support.

[smarthomesven]

@robertklep

The GPL also imposes specific requirements on the runtime that is used,

iOS and its SDKs is also not open source, yet there are many open source iOS apps on Github. So I’m not sure if the runtime also needs to be open source as well? Same can be said about the Samsung or Google SDKs for Android.

[dohun0310]

Yes, app settings pages do show up. I can install an app that has a settings page and open it normally, debug info and all.

[robertklep]

@smarthomesven

So I’m not sure if the runtime also needs to be open source as well?

It depends on how the GPL-licensed code is being run inside the runtime. I’m fairly sure that the way Homey runs apps, the runtime becomes part of the app (so to speak) and therefore would also need to be GPL-licensed.

See this FAQ:

To do this validly, you must make sure that the free and nonfree programs communicate at arms length, that they are not combined in a way that would make them effectively a single program.

Parts of the runtime loads the actual app code, and therefore combines it to be effectively a single program.

And a bit further:

The substantive part is this: if the two programs are combined so that they become effectively two parts of one program, then you can’t treat them as two separate programs. So the GPL has to cover the whole thing.

You could then also argue that Homey’s core, which is basically another part of the app “program”, would need to be GPL-licensed (or GPL-compatible licensed) as well.

In any case, this all is mostly a legal issue and IANAL, but the same applies to how the ThinQ ON runs Homey apps (which is, I can imagine, mostly the same as how Homey itself does it).

[smarthomesven]

Maybe it’s not allowed according to the license then, but I don’t have any issues with LG using my app and distributing it via their ThinQ ON device. I might even optimize my apps for it by adding automated log sending via my cloud service instead of manual via the diagnostics reports, so that I can also help ThinQ ON users in case of any issues.

@robertklep

As a Homey developer, I don’t want my apps to be used for such practises.

I guess you should contact LG then, since your app HomeKitty is also on the ThinQ app

[4x4_Pete]

Hi Guys,

all licensing detaills aside, it is at least extremely bad style from Athom to treat their highly praised community developers in such a disgustingly autocratic manner. And it shows clearer than anything else, that Athom has become just a minor little dutch operation in the big LG universe.

[smarthomesven]

@4x4_Pete

just a minor little dutch operation

According to Chrome-Stats, the Homey Android app is currently at 469k downloads. For reference, here are some stats from some other smart home apps:

• Nordlux, a manufacturer of cheap Bluetooth+WiFi lighting products: 55k downloads
• Link2Home, a manufacturer of cheap smart plugs: 151k downloads
• Pebblebee, a popular manufacturer of cheap Bluetooth trackers: 199k downloads.

Note that these are all cheap devices as well. With Homeys being very expensive and still having that many downloads is quite an achievement.

We can’t view stats for iOS apps, but let’s just pretend that also has 469k downloads, so a total of 938k. If 1/4 of all the app users has a Homey Pro, that would be 93,6 million euros of revenue then. I wouldn’t call that a “small operation”

[4x4_Pete]

@4x4_Pete

in the big LG universe

you forgot to quote the second half of my sentence. Homey/Athom is unfortunately still less than peanuts for LG and thus seems to have no influence on what the real bosses decide. Because I do not want to imagine, that this behaviour is their ethics.

[meerlol]

Hi all, thanks for raising this.

This should have been communicated up front, and it wasn’t.

To be clear about where we’re heading: when you publish an app, you’re building for the Homey ecosystem, not for Homey Pro alone. Homey runs in more places than it used to, and that will keep expanding. We think that’s a good thing for your apps and for the people using them, but it only works if it’s stated plainly, and today it isn’t written down anywhere. That’s what we want to put right.

We’re looking into the specifics internally and with LG, and we’ll come back to you in this thread.

[dohun0310]

Thank you for your response. I have shared it with the Korean IoT community.

While your comment acknowledges that this should have been communicated in advance, it does not include an apology. I would therefore like to add some important context.

Since you used the word “we” I understand your comment to represent Athom’s position. Through ThinQ ON, I was able to confirm that personal data relating to me, including my name, had been shared with LG, a large Korean corporation, without any prior notice to me. The lack of transparency regarding what personal data was shared, for what purpose, and on what legal basis is a serious concern.

Your comment explains the direction Athom intends to take, but it does not resolve the underlying issues concerning prior notice, personal data, and the rights of app developers. For that reason, I consider it an explanation of Athom’s position rather than a solution to the issue raised.

I hope you understand why I have removed the “Solution” mark from your comment.

[4x4_Pete]

Being a Dutch company or at least a Netherlands based operation of LG they have to comply with the european General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR)!

I am pretty sure you can grill them big time if you like to.
At least you have under GDPR the right to force them to exactly tell you, what data they have about you and how they use it and with whom they shared it. - And should they have done any breach of the GDPR fierce penatties apply.